Pickup Dark Arts

This week on the Tom Torero Podcast I’m joined by Troy Francis to take a walk on the wild side of pickup. As an antidote to Valentine’s Day we discuss the kinkier parts of seduction, from strippers and BDSM clubs to swingers and sex parties. How has pickup become sanitised and why does embracing the darker side of Game make us more human?

Find out more about Troy’s extensive writing here. His new book is out today.

To book a place on the Russian bootcamps with Mystery, Beckster and myself in May then go here. It’s going to be kinkier than a cheap garden hose 😉

13 thoughts on “Pickup Dark Arts”

  1. Bromance, good chemistry in this episode and I like the honesty and rawness. Keep telling it like it is uncle Tommy. Side topic…have you ever daygamed in New Zealand? I’m off on Saturday to Christchurch

  2. Hi Tom. Good podcast. Very much enjoyed it. Think you’re totally right on how the PUA world has merged with the moralist manosphere. It always strikes me that guys/bloggers who talk about game and at the same time rant about degenerates suffer severe cognitive dissonance. Game isn’t a magic cloak you wear to get girls and hide your real persona – game needs to be who you are. Guess most of those guys are really in it for ego validation rather than enjoying the girls anyway. A crappy two-stroke notch is glory to them.

    Just on blackdragon, as you mentioned him. I’ve read a few posts on his blog since you recommended it. Personally I find him a bit chodey. He has said a few things to the effect of “X is immoral and if you do X you’re a piece of shit”. That is the main reason he advocates OLTR’s; cheating on your girl is immoral he believes. I get and appreciate that he is saying relationships don’t need to be one way only, that you can forge a different type of LTR than the status quo. But every article I’ve read by him carries a strain of moralist fundamentalism where anything up to a point is good but beyond that you’re “a piece of shit”; openminded but still black and white thinking. I also don’t get why anybody would encourage their girl to fuck other men, which he does. He could just as easily negotiate terms where he can fuck other girls but his girl can’t fuck other men. Many men around the world do this without needing to have an open conversation with their main partners – it’s implied in the relationship frame. Why does he feel the need to hang everything out in the open? To me it comes across as insecurity in what he is doing and suggests a deeper shame about it. It’s like he’s wearing a badge of honour for other men but is still seeking permission from women. Also, from my perspective, he seems to project male thinking onto women in the interest of ‘equalism’ and ignores key biological differences, which suggests he doesn’t understand women that well. Just my thoughts.

  3. “I also don’t get why anybody would encourage their girl to fuck other men, which he does. He could just as easily negotiate terms where he can fuck other girls but his girl can’t fuck other men”

    I think your misreading what he says. He’s not encouraging his OLTR to see other men, if she doesn’t want to, but if she meets a guy and wants to sleep with him, she can.
    In an OLTR both parties can see other people.
    As for negotiating terms where she can’t see other guys but he can sleep with other girls, what women is going to do that?
    Unless she has zero self confidence and is totally in thrall to him, a girl may do but what guy wants that, unless he’s some kind of control freak.

  4. If he is telling her she can sleep with other men then by default he is encouraging her to do it. I think most people would see it that way. I never said anything about getting her to do something she doesn’t want to either.

    I know what an OLTR is thanks.

    What I mean by negotiating it is establishing the right frame from the beginning of any relationship rather than actually having a conversation about it, which arguably is permission seeking and chodey in itself. I gave the caveat that it is implied in the relationship frame. I think you would be surprised at how many women would be ok with it. Most successful PUA’s will at some point have a main girl they are de facto in a relationship with while also fucking other women on the side that the main girl is aware of. Having an OLTR, discussing the ins and outs etc just seems socially inept to me and demonstrates a poor understanding of female psychology.

    1. If the guy makes her feel great with a frame of sexual attitude, vibe, physical sexuality etc.. then she may well not want other guys but she’s just as likely to get bored and sleep with other guys behind his or start demanding exclusivity as her biological clock kicks in. Tom has mentioned that he’s hooked up with girls for extended periods of time but the girl decides she wants more which Tom (obviously!) doesn’t so it ends.

      By discussing things at the start i.e. your not looking for anything serious, you both know what defines the relationship and so there’s no ambiguity and lessens the chance of drama later.

      Why don’t you post your thoughts on this on BD’s site? He’s very good at replying to questions and can give you a definitive answer.

  5. Great podcast as always man. But what the name of this guy you mentioned at the very end experimenting with pickup and long-term relationships?

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